May 6, 2025
2:00-2:05 PM: Open Floor Period: The Open Floor Period provides an informal opportunity for campus community members to raise questions or make comments directed to Senators, Senate officers or to university administrators. Please arrive promptly at 2:00 PM. Please limit comments to not more than three minutes per topic. Senators may make announcements under Item 3 below.
Sen. Chou shared that 5/6-512 is Nurse Appreciation Week.
Sen. Segovia-McGahan posted in the chat a collaborative recognition ceremony with the Latinx Student Center, 45th Annual Noche De La Familia, and book launch event, Plática/Talk: Afro Feminista : Raza y Mujer en Puerto Rico.
Guest Chaudhuri shared in the chat, Wednesday pet therapy and CEETL international wine tasting event.
Sen. Sohler reshared that Wednesday, 5/7, is a day of ChatGPT via SFSU’s ChatGPT day
2:05 PM: Call to Order
- Approval of the agenda
The agenda is approved by general consent.
- Approval of minutes from the previous plenary
The minutes are approved by general consent.
- Senator announcements: Any senator can speak to no more than 3 minutes per topic. This is a good time for senators who are college representatives to share announcements from their respective colleges.
- Reports
- Senate chair's report
Chair Wilson expressed gratitude to all Senate members for their ongoing dedication throughout the academic year, acknowledging both their participation in plenary sessions and the substantial work leading up to them. He also highlighted the upcoming final plenary at Seven Hills, which will include commendations, Senate officer elections, committee assignments, and the announcement of distinguished faculty awardees, followed by a 4 p.m. reception. He encouraged all members to attend and engage in the collegial spirit of the event.
Chair Wilson closed by thanking all standing committees for their diligent work, from those producing numerous policy proposals to those developing complex, high-impact recommendations, noting that the year’s productivity is a testament to their thoughtful engagement.
4.2. University president's report
Pres. Mahoney addressed the Senate with updates on federal and state developments impacting the university. She cautioned against misinformation on social media, especially regarding DEI-related legal matters, emphasizing the importance of following actual legal guidance. She assured continued collaboration with the CSU Office of General Counsel and the State Attorney General’s office, especially in response to ongoing legal uncertainties like the "Dear Colleague" letter, which remains tied up in court.
She shared positive news that visas for five affected SFSU students and alumni were reinstated, though without explanation. Pres. Mahoney commended SFSU staff for their efforts in supporting these students.
Budget concerns were also highlighted, noting anticipation of the Governor’s revised budget within the next week. While acknowledging pessimistic forecasts, Pres. Mahoney praised the year’s strong advocacy efforts by students, faculty, and staff, including mass outreach to alumni and legislative lobbying. She indicated that budget implications for SFSU will be communicated after CSU analysis.
Lastly, Pres. Mahoney announced she would miss the next Senate meeting, and closed with heartfelt thanks to the Senate for their commitment to shared governance during these critical times.
- University provost's report
Prov. Sueyoshi shared that
- Associated Students President's report
Sen. Foley shared that the Gator Groceries fundraising campaign was successful this year, reaching $51,500 so far, with the campaign ending on June 1. Next year, the focus will shift to exploring a long-term endowment project, with the fundraising goal and timeline still to be determined.
He also noted that the work will continue on expanding the Gator Pass to cover summer and winter breaks, even for students not enrolled during those terms.
Sen. Foley also shared that Sen. Hernandez Monroy, currently the AS Director of Social Justice and Equity, will return next year as VP of Academic Affairs.
- Standing committee reports
- Academic Policies Committee
Sen. Islami noted APC is bringing revisions to two policies in second reading, including the course syllabus policy and the policy for graduate student requirements.
- Campus Curriculum Committee
Sen. Harvey shared that CCC has no new items for plenary today.
- Faculty Affairs Committee
Sen. Brown gave notice that FAC has three items including an information item which is a joint item in collaboration with SAC regarding the Student Feedback Regarding Teaching (i.e., SCFs, SETEs), and will continue through next year.
FAC also has two items in second reading: the resolution supporting equitable service for lecturer faculty and the RTP policy.
- Strategic Issues Committee
Sen. Trousdale gave notice that SIC brings only one item to the Senate floor today, and that is proposed changes to the academic freedom policy in second reading.
- Student Affairs Committee
Sen. Christensen announced that SAC brings two resolutions to the plenary today in second reading: a resolution calling for a report on the instruction of reading and writing, as well as a resolution in support of student-parent success at SFSU.
Sen. Christenson noted that SAC is also bringing two items in first reading: a policy on student college advisory committees and a resolution calling for a mentorship task force in support of student success.
Informational Items: An informational item is a statement announcing the completion of a process, carried out in accordance with Senate policy, and requiring formal notification of the Senate at its conclusion.
Consent Items: A consent item is one deemed by the initiating committee and the Executive Committee to be non-controversial, requiring no debate. Any Senator may request to debate the item, in which case it is considered as new business in first reading. If there is no request to debate, the Chair will declare debate closed and the motion adopted by “General Consent.” It may be read into the record, or we may move directly to the next agenda items.
Continuing Business: Continuing (once called Old) Business involves items returning to the Senate, usually in Second Reading, but occasionally still in First Reading. Items in the Second Reading belong to the Senate as a whole rather than to an individual or committee. Comments on Second Reading items should be confined to those for or against or proposing specific amendments. We ordinarily limit each speaker to three minutes. Senators may yield their time to non-Senators if needed. Amendments and the final document are passed or not passed by majority vote.
Student Affairs Committee
- Resolution Calling for a Report on the Instruction of Reading and Writing
Sen. Christenson moved item five and spoke to the item sharing that this resolution was brought in first reading with no suggested revisions from the last plenary session. It acknowledges the shifts in the instruction of reading and writing across campus in response to generative artificial intelligence, curricular shifts and changing professional writing needs. It reinforces SF State's commitment to supporting multilingual student learners, and it acknowledges that writing instruction is a high-impact teaching practice. It also requests that the Committee on Written English Proficiency complete a study focusing on the current reality of reading and writing across campus, and report back to the Academic Senate findings and recommendations from the resulting study.
Chair Wilson noted that there were no speakers for or against the resolution and called into question a vote on the resolution.
Vice Chair Holschuh facilitated the vote for the resolution.
Yes: 35
No: 0
Abstain: 2
- Resolution in Support of Student Parent Success at San Francisco State University
Sen. Christenson moved and spoke to the item, sharing that the resolution in support of student-parent success at SF State was drafted by Sen. Collins and Jordan Calley, Director of Facilities and Operations for Associated Students. It acknowledges the importance of addressing and reducing barriers to parenting student success across campus. It acknowledges work already done to better support parenting students, including support services that are available through the Early Childhood Education Center, the Library, Wellness Center, and other campus locations.
Sen. Christenson noted that while In first reading, there was a recommendation to include links to campus and library resources for faculty to include on their syllabi. SAC has incorporated the URLs for some of these links and resources into a footnote at the bottom of the resolution so that these may potentially be integrated into a campus syllabus policy in the future.
Sen. Hellman spoke in favor of the resolution.
Chair Wilson noted that there were no additional speakers and called into question a vote on the resolution.
Vice Chair Holschuh facilitated the vote for the resolution.
Yes: 40
No: 0
Abstain: 0
Academic Policies Committee
- Policy on Requirements for Graduate Students, #S21-295
Sen. Islami moved the item.
Sen. Islami spoke to the item, stating that APC brought this resolution to second reading with no changes made since first reading, sharing that this policy change was to extend the period of consecutive semesters for graduate students needing to reapply from two to three to ease the burden of returning on graduate students.
Chair Wilson noted that there were no additional speakers for or against the resolution and called into question a vote on the resolution.
Vice Chair Holschuh facilitated the vote for the policy.
Yes: 37
No: 0
Abstain: 2
- Course Syllabus Policy, #S24-257
Sen. Islami moved and spoke to the item, sharing that given the widespread use of generative AI and LLMs, APC thought to add something to the course syllabus policy that makes a requirement on the faculty to add a statement as how to why generative AI tools can and cannot be used to provide guidelines with students. Faculty have autonomy to choose what to put as a statement for how and why LLMs can be used or cannot be used.
Sen. Zavala proposed a minor amendment given the policy that was just discussed on parenting and to propose that as is on the screen under item “M”, to amend to include information about and links to relevant support services such as tutoring, library, basic needs counseling, parenting resources, etc.
Sen. Christenson seconded the editing amendment.
Chair Wilson noted that there were no additional speakers and called into question the vote for the editing amendment in the policy.
Vice Chair Holschuh facilitated the vote for the amendment of the policy.
Yes: 38
No: 0
Abstain: 3
Chair Wilson asked if there were any speakers for the main motion of the policy and noted that there were no additional speakers and therefore called into question the vote for the policy as a whole.
Vice Chair Holschuh facilitated the vote for the policy.
Yes: 38
No: 0
Abstain: 3
Faculty Affairs Committee
- Resolution Supporting Equitable Service for Lecturer Faculty
Sen. Brown moved the item.
Sen. Obayashi spoke to the item, sharing that the information or feedback regarding this suspension was shared in the previous plenary.
Chair Wilson called into question the vote for the resolution.
Vice Chair Holschuh facilitated the vote for the resolution.
Yes: 34
No: 0
Abstain: 3
- Retention, Tenure, and Promotion Policy, #S24-241
Sen. Brown moved the item.
Sen. van Kampen spoke to the item, sharing that FAC did not receive any comments or feedback from the first reading on the RTP policy, and there were no revisions to the policy since the first reading.
Chair Wilson called into question the vote for the policy.
Vice Chair Holschuh facilitated the vote for the policy.
Yes: 30
No: 0
Abstain: 6
Strategic Issues Committee
- Academic Freedom Policy, #F13-267
Sen. Trousdale moved and spoke to the item noting that SIC has spent a significant amount of time working on this policy, dedicating an hour at every single meeting to careful consideration of this policy and on the proposed changes. SIC has consulted broadly across the campus community on this policy and the proposed changes. SIC met with the Title IX office, the Office of General Counsel, and the university's legal team.
He also shared that SIC communicated through various channels, including the university retreat and individual meetings, to discuss feedback on the policy from the first reading to consider the feedback. Feedback was overwhelmingly positive to the revisions made by SIC with one small change to the policy in between the first reading and second reading. SIC rewrote some of the language around in lines 46, 47, 48, and 49.
Sen. Hellman spoke in favor of the revised policy and shared that it is a particularly important time for this policy.
Sen. Sinha spoke against the policy, citing concerns that the policy does not strongly assert that faculty have sole authority over curriculum to prevent misrepresentation by outside parties.
Vice Chair Holschuh ceded her time to Guest Greensite.
Guest Greensite spoke in favor of the policy.
Sen. Burcu spoke in favor of the policy and reiterated what Sen. Trousdale shared on how this policy builds upon existing policy previously approved by the Academic Senate.
Chair Wilson noted that there were additional speakers and called into question a vote on the policy.
Vice Chair Holschuh facilitated the vote for the policy.
Yes: 30
No: 0
Abstain: 9
New Business: New Business items are brought by a committee or individual to the Senate in First Reading, during which open discussion and debate may occur. We ordinarily limit each speaker to three minutes. Senators may yield their time to non-Senators if needed. The item is then returned to the Committee for further revision, to be brought back as Continuing Business in Second Reading.
Executive Committee
- Resolution in Support of Gator Groceries at SF State
Sen. Collins moved and spoke to the item stating that the resolution aims to support the ongoing efforts of Gator Groceries and its work to address rising student food insecurity, which has grown from ~50% in 2017 to 73%. He emphasized the resolution formalizes SF State's commitment, recognizes past collaborative efforts, and praised Sen. Foley for securing a major donation to Gator Groceries.
Sen. Hellman ceded his time to Guest Goldman.
Guest Goldman spoke in favor of the resolution sharing an anecdote about a campus event that brought attention to the need for Gator Groceries.
Sen. Sinha spoke in favor of the resolution.
Chair Wilson noted in the chat that a citation was requested for the 73% represented in the resolution and in Sen. Collins speaking to the resolution.
Sen. Collins noted that citations will be provided as well as references.
Vice Chair Holschuh proposed moving this item to second reading.
Sen. Hellman seconded the motion.
Chair Wilson called for anyone to speak to this motion.
Sen. Hellman spoke in favor of this motion to move the resolution to second reading.
Chair Wilson noted that there were no other speaker requests and called into question a vote to move this resolution to second reading, which requires a two-thirds majority vote.
Vice Chair Holschuh facilitated the vote to move this resolution from first to second reading.
Yes: 39
No: 0
Abstain: 2
Chair Wilson and Vice Chair Holschuh confirmed that the two-thirds threshold had passed moving the resolution to second reading.
Chair Wilson noted a question in the chat by Prov. Sueyoshi regarding the percentages provided by Sen. Collins of the number of students who are food insecure. They asked for clarifying of the two percentages of 48% and 73%.
Sen Collins responded as a point of information that the number of 48% is for how many during the poll were experiencing food insecurity and is a part of the information presented across campus by the ACHA and was shared to Senate on March 18, 2025 plenary through their presentation and subsequent reports. He also shared that the 73% was the number of students that continue to experience food insecurity based on the reporting shared by the presenter and guest, Karen Boyce and her team.
Sen. Collins spoke in support of the resolution and offered an amendment to be included in the body of the current resolution as the whereas second clause following the existing first whereas. “Whereas: Gator Groceries evolved from a pop-up pantry established in 2017 by Mr. Horace Montgomery, Associate Students Executive Director of Programs, which furthered SF State’s efforts to support student basic needs established by UCORPs one-time allocation of $100,000 student emergency fund endowment; and” is the proposed language shared in the chat for the amendment.
Sen. Hellman seconded the amendment.
Sen. Collins spoke in favor of the amendment.
Sen. Sinha Spoke in favor of the amendment.
Chair Wilson noted that there were no additional speakers and called into question a vote on the amendment to the resolution.
Vice Chair Holschuh facilitated the vote for the amendment.
Yes: 38
No: 0
Abstain: 2
Sen. Collins proposed an amendment to adjust the language in the fourth whereas to “so making SF State among the first campuses.”
Chair Wilson noted that this is a copy edit and does not require a vote.
Chair Wilson called into question a vote to approve the resolution after noting that there were no additional speaker requests.
Vice Chair Holschuh facilitated the vote for the resolution.
Yes: 38
No: 0
Abstain: 0
Sen. Collins moved to introduce the resolution commending President Mahoney and spoke in support of a resolution commending President Mahoney for her commitment to transparency, shared governance, and defending academic freedom. He emphasized the resolution recognizes her public stance against political overreach, her alignment with AAC&U values, and her courage in speaking out at personal and professional risk. He called it an act of leadership that benefits both the institution and its broader mission.
Vice Chair Holschuh, noting that there were no other speakers requested, motioned to move this resolution to second reading.
Sen. Hellman seconded the motion.
Chair Wilson called into question a vote to move the resolution from first to second reading after seeing no hands for speakers.
Vice Chair Holschuh facilitated the vote to move the resolution to second reading.
Yes: 38
No: 0
Abstain: 2
Sen. Trousdale proposed a grammatical amendment to the title of the resolution to have it read “Resolution Commending President Mahoney for signing the AAC&U Letter” emphasizing the signing of the letter for clarity.
Chair Wilson noted that this is a copy edit and called for any speakers to debate this as a more substantive change. No senators objected or debated this copy edit and Chair Wilson called for speakers to speak in favor of t or against the whole of the resolution.
Sen. Trousdale spoke in favor of the resolution.
Sen. Hellman spoke in favor of sharing that other CSU campuses followed President Mahoney’s lead of signing onto the letter.
Chair Wilson acknowledged that there were no other speakers and called into question a vote on the resolution.
Vice Chair Holschuh facilitated the vote for the resolution.
Yes: 36
No: 0
Abstain: 0
Student Affairs Committee
- Policy on Student College Advisory Committees (SCAC)
Sen. Christenson moved item fourteen.
Sen. Foley spoke to the item sharing that this policy establishes a student college advisory committee for each academic college to act as a bridge between students and faculty in areas to ensure that student needs are informing college level decision making with its recommendations being non-binding, but asks for formal consideration and a response from college leadership. Each committee would be chaired by an Associated Students college representative for the specific college, with student representatives for each department. The department chair or designee, the committee chair, and student reps would all have a vote on these committees. Non-voting members would include the college scheduler, college advising director, and college dean or designee.
Prov. Sueyoshi thanked Sen. Foley for his proposal but questioned why existing student input mechanisms, like AS reps, are not working. She noted that the issue seems to be not lack of input, but that input isn’t being implemented, which she sees as a personnel problem. She cautioned against creating new bureaucratic structures and encouraged better use of existing channels.
Sen. Foley responded that the Associated Students reps’ effectiveness varies by who’s elected and that broader departmental representation could improve input and address gaps, especially during campus downsizing.
Sen. Myers appreciated Senator Foley's proposal but echoed concerns about adding new administrative burdens. She noted her college was already forming a similar advisory board and emphasized the need for better coordination with colleges. Myers suggested involving knowledgeable staff (like building coordinators) as non-voting members and proposed co-chairing the committee to ease student responsibilities, especially in large colleges like LCA, where the proposed committee could have 46 members. They emphasized refining the approach through more communication to ensure effectiveness.
Sen. Pasion asked a clarifying question regarding the time commitment for the student representatives to dedicate to these proposed committees.
Sen. Foley shared that the Associated Student wrote this with a time commitment of up to an hour and a half each month.
Sen. Scott asked about the realities of reaching quorum in a larger college and if the varying student schedules would be difficult to plan around to meet the needed quorum for each meeting.
Sen. Foley shared that there was some flexibility with the committee schedules and that this was a consideration for the Associated Students when they wrote this resolution.
Vice Chair Holschuh noted that the proposed committee could foster valuable collaborations within and across colleges by incorporating student perspectives, which could help identify productive interdepartmental opportunities.
Chair Wilson, noting that there were no other requests for speakers, shared that this would return to the committee for further input and consideration for next year’s SAC.
- Resolution Calling for Mentorship Task Force in Support of Student Success
Sen. Christenson moved and spoke to the item sharing that this is a resolution calling for a mentorship task force to coordinate and support formal and informal mentorship across campus, aiming to improve student success, especially for marginalized groups. The task force would unify mentorship efforts, develop best practices, and promote success stories. Sen. Christian asked to cede time to Guest, Susana Jones to further speak on the resolution being proposed.
Guest Jones praised the resolution for proposing a mentorship task force, calling it a smart move to unify and better understand diverse mentorship efforts across campus. She emphasized the importance of coordinating and codifying these practices, from pre-arrival to post-graduation, to enhance student success and peer support. She expressed her willingness to join the task force.
Sen. Collins spoke in favor of the resolution, emphasizing the need for these types of mentorship programs.
Sen. Trousdale asked a clarifying question regarding the third resolved clause that states that this task force will serve as a workgroup of the Retention Operations Committee and was curious as to the makeup of this committee, as they had not been aware of its existence prior to this resolution having been presented.
Sen. Way explained that the Retention Operations Committee is an operational (not policy) committee created by President Mahoney, modeled after a structure she used at LA. It was praised in the WASC report. Its members, such as directors from Financial Aid, Admissions, EOP, Advising, and Grad Studies, handle day-to-day student issues. The committee addresses problems arising from siloed operations, like financial aid billing, and forms task forces to respond to student needs, often in collaboration with the SAC.
Sen. Chou asked for clarification about the term "faculty mentorship" in the resolution, questioning whether it referred to mentorship for faculty professional development or mentorship provided by faculty to students.
Sen. Christensen responded that the term refers to the latter, faculty mentoring students in informal ways, such as through advising, career discussions, or personal support that may not be officially recognized. The resolution aims to create a shared vocabulary and central resource to acknowledge and support these mentoring relationships.
Vice Chair Holschuh suggested moving this to second reading pending there were no additional comments from the body.
Sen. Sohler seconded the proposal to move this resolution to second reading.
Sen. Christenson spoke to the timeliness of moving this resolution to second reading emphasizing that SAC has actively worked to connect with various programs and initiatives across campus, discovering many valuable resources they were previously unaware of. She argued that a coordinated, strategic effort is needed to make these programs more visible to prospective and incoming students, as they showcase what makes SF State a unique and valuable learning environment. They also noted that, due to ongoing conversations throughout the semester, many campus stakeholders are already engaged and supportive of the initiative, making this a timely opportunity to capitalize on that momentum by moving the resolution to a second reading.
Sen. Brewer added that, beyond the momentum described by Sen. Christensen, the resolution also serves to inform campus-wide decision-making, particularly in the context of budget cuts. He emphasized that some of the areas being cut directly impact mentorship opportunities, which are critical to student retention. Therefore, it's important that those responsible for making such decisions understand the consequences these cuts may have on student success and retention outcomes.
Chair Wilson noted there were no additional requests for speakers and called into question the vote to move this resolution from first to second reading, requiring a two-thirds majority.
Vice Chair Holschuh facilitated the vote to move this resolution from first to second reading.
Yes: 35
No: 0
Abstain: 2
Sen. Segovia McGahan spoke in favor of the resolution, sharing that this resolution was to support work that already exists.
Chair Wilson noted that there were no additional requests for speakers and called into question a vote on the entirety of the resolution.
Vice Chair Holschuh facilitated the vote for the resolution.
Yes: 32
No: 0
Abstain: 2
Adjournment: Time Definite 4:02PM
Alesha Sohler
Secretary
Attendance
Brian | Aday | LFCOB |
Michael | Anderson | LCA |
John | Brewer | COSE |
Elizabeth | Brown | CHSS |
Fang-yu | Chou | CHSS |
Ellen | Christensen | LCA |
Robert Keith | Collins | ASCSU |
Stephanie | Cyr | CHSS |
Acacio | de Barros | LCA |
Burcu | Ellis | LCA |
Brandon | Foley | ASI |
Frederick | Green | LCA |
Jason | Harris-Boundy | LFCOB |
Rick | Harvey | CHSS |
David | Hellman | LIB |
Elsy | Hernandez-Monroy | ASI |
Carrie | Holschuh | CHSS |
Wei | Huang | LFCOB |
Arezoo | Islami | LCA |
Santhi | Kavuri-Bauer | LCA |
Ash | Klein | CPaGe |
David | Landy | LCA |
Lynn | Mahoney | President |
Elaine | Musselman | CHSS |
Taylor | Myers | LCA (Staff) |
Yuki | Obayashi | CoES |
Veronika | Papyrina | LFCOB |
Sally | Pasion | COSE |
Stanley | Pogrow | GCOE |
Marcia | Raggio | GCOE |
Todd | Roehrman | LCA |
Devi | Ruslani-Reyes | CHSS |
Michael | Scott | ORSP |
Gabriela | Segovia-McGahan | COSE |
Rae | Shaw | LCA |
Dipendra | Sinha | ASCSU |
Alesha | Sohler | GCOE staff |
Emiko | Takagi | CHSS |
Alaric | Trousdale | SAEM |
Saskia | Van Kampen | LCA |
Janey | Wang | CHSS |
Lori Beth | Way | DUEAP |
Jackson | Wilson | CHSS |
Jude | Wolf | GCOE |
Grace | Yoo | GCOE Dean's Council |
Maria | Zavala | GCOE |
Yabin | Zhao | LFCOB |
Absent
Fatima | Alaoui | LCA |
Maya | Bal | ASI |
Steve | Choe | LCA |
Amy | Dorie | CHSS |
Crystal | Edwards | CoES |
Tanya | Hollis | LIB |
Bahar | Javadi | LFCOB |
M. Ernita | Joaquin | CHSS |
Eric | Koehn | COSE |
Colin | Leasure | COSE |
Katie | Lynch | EM |
re | Schuster | COSE |
Time | Ubungen | LFCOB Staff |
Wesley | Ueunten | COSE |
Guests
Sophie Clavier | GS |
Jamillah Moore | SAEM |
Bruce Heiman | AFC |
Jay Ward | DoIE |
Margo Landy | EM |
Michael Goldman | COSE |
Jeff Grensite | AFC |
Brandon Davis | Athletics |
David Schachman | SAEM |
Andreana Clay | CHSS |
Cynthia Grutzik | GCOE |
Claude Bartholomew | DUEAP |
Teddy Albiniak | Presisdent's Office |
Victoria Narkewicz | GCOE |
Luis de La Paz | Presisdent's Office |
Anoshua Chaudhuri | CEETL |
Jeff Wilson | A & F |
Nancy Ganner | HR |
Resha Cardone | LCA |
Noah Price | GS |
Ifeoma nwankwo | LCA |
Jason Welch | Athletics |
Mary Menees | GS |
Gitanjali Shahani | LCA |
Laila Asgari | SAEM |
Yim-Yu Wong | LFCOB |
Michelle Montoya | DUEAP |
Post-Plenary Floor Period: This is ordinarily an informal opportunity for senators and guests to meet, exchange information, or follow up on items or questions emerging from the meeting. It will ordinarily run for thirty minutes from the end of formal business, but not beyond 5:00 PM, if people remain online or in the room.